Doundounbas

[e2c]

No, I haven't yet been able to study with either, though I had hoped to take one of Famoudou's workshops last month - however, with rising gas prices, that just didn't work out. (Plus hotel, food, workshop fees, etc.) I'm on the other coast, so we kind of take what we can get...

I think perhaps I didn't state certain things clearly enough in my last post. Do I respect both Mamady and Famoudou as masters? Of course.

But (having been a percussionist for a while), it seems to me that there is a sameness of phrasing (etc.) in Mamady's instructional materials (includes the video that Mahiri did with Menes Yahuda and Taylor). It's all great stuff, but... I've been studying with someone who has worked with multiple teachers (including Menes, who is his current instructor), including a number of people in Guinea itself. Although he teaches both traditional and stage versions of various rhythms and accompaniments, I get the feeling that he's drawing mainly on variations he has learned while studying in Guinea; also (to some extent) with Abdoul Doumbia.

I want to stress that I think the legit people who are teaching in the US and Europe are great - but at the same time, this is music, and I really don't want to sound like a clone of someone else (especially in phrasing, etc, - though I'd welcome a chops transplant any day! )

So, to come full circle, I sometimes think that we Westerners tend to equate "authenticity" with a single way of doing things, and... that leads to a lot of misconceptions and unnecessary rigidity.

Does that make sense to you?

[bubudi]

some good points there, folks. i would also agree that the tradition is not a static thing but rather there is some elasticity to it due to the regional or inter-village variations, as well as the effect of changing times. i feel that music and dance, just like other aspects of culture, are mirrors of the people behind them. that is also true in western cultures and any other cultures.

there is, however, a limit to the elasticity of these rhythms and these changes take place over a long period of time. in some villages, much has remained unchanged in the repertoire over the past 50 years or more. if you're fortunate enough to witness a ceremony in some of these villages, you may see extremely ancient, raw looking drums being used and the village may not own any dununbas. in other villages there has been more change. sometimes masters return to play a ceremony in the village after learning new things from the outside. who is to say what is traditional and what is not? why are we so obsessed with this question in the west?

outside west africa we are not constantly immersed in this music. so when learning someone else's culture, which can get sensitive, perhaps we should be careful to verify our information and gain a better understanding of the traditions. otherwise, westerners who have little understanding of the traditions will misconvey information to others from their displaced viewpoint. this information then becomes relayed by several others and very quickly, many people have the wrong information and will continue to spread it further. that's not much of an issue in africa where people are surrounded by their traditions. so we need to make a conscious effort to learn from a reputable source. but as e2c asked, who are the keepers of the traditions in the west?

they are certain masters now living in the west who have taken it upon themselves to correct misconceptions that are common there. additionally, those who have been to west africa may keep in contact with old masters that they studied under, or djelis that they befriended, and ask for specific information when the need arises. does that mean we should not pay too much attention to the newer generations? absolutely not. they are the future carriers of the tradition. however, the old masters (which the newer generations will eventually become) generally make a distinction between the old and the new.

coming back now to the original question about mendiani and the dunun rhythms, these themselves have undergone various changes and have been influenced by each other. such things occur more frequently in the big cities like conakry which is like a huge cultural melting pot and where there are many talented djembe players playing the rhythms outside of their original context. however, this phenomenon is by no means limited to the cities. inter-village practices vary significantly with the practice of mendiani ceremonies, number of dancers, dance steps, costumes, sangban and dununba parts and variations, solo phrases and order of rhythms.

in light of this, the word of any old master is by no means the final truth because much more can be gained by a collective approach of asking several masters who know the traditions well, allowing one to gain a fuller, richer picture of the traditions. however, as dugafola suggested, keeping the differences separate is important in remembering what's what.

[e2c]

Good thoughts!

I used to see traditions as fragile things that had to be preserved at all costs... but the older I get, the more it seems that traditions are really quite hardy things. And that the other important thing to keep in mind is that part of that hardiness comes from adaption and change. There will always be new ideas, new ways of doing things... and that doesn't mean that the "old" ways are unimportant.

I think it's vital to approach other peoples' music and culture with humility and a desire to learn, but that in the end, there's no single brass ring to grab, because there can be such a wide variety of things within any given tradition. (Unless it comes from an extremely isolated area - referring to the world at large, not just W. Africa.)

Spoken and written language changes constantly (new words, new meanings for old words), and that seems to be accepted and understood. I wonder why we view music in a different light?

[Marc_M]

Hi Folks -

Good points in all the posts.

So in the spirit of tradition with incremental variations:

Does anyone know a different Sangban part for Bolokonondo than is posted on the WAP Pages?

http://www.paulnas.eu/wap/bolokono.html

The call, kenkeni and first phrase of the Sangban all concur with what I have been learning, but I have been playing the first phrase played twice, followed by another phrase that doesn't feel like any posted there. In the variation I know, the Sangban plays open tones just before the beat.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Here's a video link of Mamady Keita and Amare Kante in Toronto with local musician and organizer Karen Hack. Unfortunately, I missed this. I could kick myself.

From Youtube
"Mamady Keita came to Toronto to give some workshops while Amara Kante (on sangban here) was in town summer 07. Here is what happened at the party - a little fun with Bolokonondo - Lancei Konde on dununba, Karen Hack on kenkeni - uh, i mean kensereni!"

[bubudi]

following up on a discussion we began in another thread where we talked about takonani, and whether it was a dunun rhythm or not, or even may possibly be an invention of famoudou's...

i'm sure Afoba will know this, but they often time's use the Takonani "phrase" for echauffments around gberedu. it works very nice.

Me, too, I do that sometimes, especially when I play with Mansa Camio (Baro/Gberedu). In Hamana I've never heard it.

yea i noticed mansa does this and teaches it.

I don't know about another (dundunba) rhythm that works like takonani....
As I told you, I dont't think it is an dundunba rhythm.

certainly famoudou plays and teaches it like a dunun rhythm, as do his sons. fode bangoura also plays it that way. age delbanco calls it a dununba in his book (not sure what his source was for this).

the only info i have about this rhythm is that it is only played in a denabo/den fete. so it's not a very commonly played rhythm. 'tako' refers to a particular dance step done in dununba rhythms such as takokelen, takofila, takosaba, etc.

[Afoba]

following up on a discussion we began in another thread where we talked about takonani, and whether it was a dunun rhythm or not, or even may possibly be an invention of famoudou's...
certainly famoudou plays and teaches it like a dunun rhythm, as do his sons. fode bangoura also plays it that way. age delbanco calls it a dununba in his book (not sure what his source was for this).
the only info i have about this rhythm is that it is only played in a denabo/den fete. so it's not a very commonly played rhythm. 'tako' refers to a particular dance step done in dununba rhythms such as takokelen, takofila, takosaba, etc.

Bubudi, mostly Famoudou's son (nkörökèlu) are no different source from Famoudou. Nor is Fode B.!
He's a Bangoura, so what do you think how often he has been to Hamana? Maybe once in life on a little trip. His sources are FK's and MK' discs and maybe some guys in CKY, who have already changed their way to play (and even more to teach!), too - for they are in CKY! That doesn't count.
I'm not sure if there is another rhythm apart from takosaba who earns the name of "tako..."
As you say, it refers to the steps, so I think that takonani, -fila (NFaKaba) are only modern names that try to establish a (new, constructed, untrue) logic for the visitors from the 1st world - nameing some rhythms in the same way or style. But that's only my suggestions, of course.

you were saying somewhere that in your opinion the dunun rhythms are not in the same family as soli/soko. can you please explain this further in the dununba topic.

In Germany we (ok, some) are used to talk about 3 families:
1) "dundunba" (containing more than just the dundunba rhythms: everything going brun gudun gudun gudun and having the dundunba played upbeat during the chauffe - but there are exceptions)
2) "dya" everything going gudugudugudu gudun gun or gudun gudun gudun gun, having the dundunba playing towards the downbeat during the chauffe
3) binary rhythms

Contraring to Paul Engel, I prefer to take soli out of the first group and to take it as a 4th group on his own, cause it has got more or less the "dundunba" (and konden and mendiani and konkoba...) feeling of djembe solos AND more dya like bells and lines on the dunduns - so soli is THE special rhythm that doesn't fit into "normal" logics of explaining Hamana style.
From the 3rd group you could even extract the whole Kassa stuff or all the rhythms, where the dundunba plays on the beat. But that's maybe exagerating.
Inside the 1st group you got the "real dundunbas" (little problem: donaba and NFaKaba are "real dundunbas" but musically aren't, for they got more or less a "dya"-bell, so they are part of the soli-group;-)). Then you got the konden rhythms, Manamba/Gbundian, konkoba... and I would extract the first mendiani ternary - someone said it before - it's very close to the faranah kawa (the sangbarala kawa fits more into konden and dundunbas).

After all, if you ask me, if this method makes sence, I have to say: I don't know! But it's fun! d;-)

Concerning Bolokonondo variations I have to say that I'm very sceptic. There are some little variations, but it's not important and most of the time they don't play any. In Balato they play another version (only 3 closed strokes the 2nd time) and two double strokes in the end, but what does it matter...
It's better to keep cool there, to play the basic well and to put all the energy in working on dundungbè to get the Sangban and djembe together quite well d;-)

see you soon
Daniel

[Afoba]

Bubudi
I don't know about "takonani"/"damba" being played for the den fête. For me it's a "women's rhythm".
we played it in Fissadou for Sakala's marriage, too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD9dfhvZrbA

[Afoba]

I have to make clear: the djembe player is Lukas Jolly, I play sangban later in the video.
d

[bubudi]

nice work in that video, daniel!
i've only heard of takonani being played for the denabo, however, there is some overlap between denabo and konyo (wedding). balakulandian/soli lent is a good example. so this doesn't come as a surprise.

i've never heard of takonani being called 'damba' though. for me damba is a different rhythm, another dunun rhythm that you can hear on the same famoudou cd as takonani. damba is played before the marriage ceremony, on the occasion that the bride has a ritual bath. the sangban is a little bit similar but it's different enough to be a separate rhythm, especially when you take the bell into account.

as for the families, i will tell you what i have heard and then what i personally think. that's not to argue against what you say in any way, ok? it's good to have your perspective and your rationale definitely has merit.

several masters say that soli and dunun rhythms are of the same family. sega sidibe went as far as to classify most mande rhythms into 3 families: sugu (soli), denba (maraka) and dansa.

of course, every rhythm has its own unique feel, difference in swing (however subtle), solo language, etc., but there are a lot more similarities than differences between soli and soko and the dunun rhythms. konkoba and koreduga are also in this family, although they both have 6 beats in the dunun cycle rather than 4 or 8 as with soli and soko. the dunun rhythms also vary in length of the cycle, but this is not enough to put them in a different family. i would also class djaa as being in the soli family.

the denba feel is vastly different to that of the rhythms in the soli family. for instance, there is a lot of emphasis on the first offbeat in most beats, and there is a marked change in the microtiming. it's hard to describe without playing an example.

the dansa family fits your class of binary rhythms, although some of these do vary a lot in feel. for instance, both kuku and sunu are quite different to dansa or the kassas. i would definitely put the latter two in the same family, even though one can argue that the feel of dansa as played in mali is a lot more swung. so you see that we can split hairs sometimes when we analyse particular elements of the music. we have to look more at the music as a whole and even on a more intuitive level.

i'm not sure it's possible or even necessary to categorise each mande rhythm into a family, but it's fun to try and work out the origins of rhythms. you can definitely see some of them as morphing from one another if you look hard enough.

[bops]

Bubudi, mostly Famoudou's son (nkörökèlu) are no different source from Famoudou. Nor is Fode B.! He's a Bangoura, so what do you think how often he has been to Hamana? Maybe once in life on a little trip. His sources are FK's and MK' discs and maybe some guys in CKY, who have already changed their way to play (and even more to teach!), too - for they are in CKY! That doesn't count.

I'm playing a school gig with him in a couple of hours... I'll ask him.

[Afoba]

okok,
I put takonani and damba (it's the Famoudou name) together, because I don't believe in a dundunba rhythm of that kind.

Sorry, but you talk about different swings in dundunba, soli and denba (denabö I think), but you put Sökö and Djaa in the same family???????
You can't do that! d;-) No matter where you stop talking about groups, families and so on and what you put where, but Dyaa and Dundunba are nearly as different as kassa and soli.
At the same time it's quite the same: most rhythms of the dyaa family are like a turned dundunba. Best example: Dyikaba or Gidamba /o x x oo + x/o (or /o x+ xo x+ x/o Famoudou version) is dundungbè or Manamba turned (4 pulses later). So in this rhythm the dundunba offbeat acc. djembe becomes the beat acc. djembe!
Nono, in upper guinean music you have to respect the 3 families at least (according to the 3 different basic ways to play a blocage!). I prefer 4, but there we can discuss.

Dyanza and Sunu are Kasonka rhythms, aren't they? So this doesn't help in this discussion. Same with Kuku - where is it from? who knows someone who has heard it once in only one traditional way?
d;-)

Have a look on your notations: the sangban bells of all dundunbas (except donaba and NFaKaba), of Konden, Balani etc will follow the same lines. Dyaa, Tasaba, Gidamba (and Soli) don't. Sökö is the Dyaa line, but for Mamady teaches a echauffment line as normal sangban part, you can't see it there.
Dundunba (and next relatives) /x xx xx x x / or /x xx x xx x / seldom /x x xx xx x /
Dyaa /x x x xx x x/ or /x x xx x x x/
Soli /x x x x xx x/ but more or less same feeling as dundunbas
/x x x x x x / and /x xx xx xx x/ are possible everywhere

So playing kassa means in a way to play dundunba bells + dyaa solos d;-)

OK, that's exaggerating a bit, but only a bit.
see you
d

[e2c]

great discussion, guys - is there any way sound files could be added to the last couple of posts? It might help clarify a lot of things... (So would, I think, making a distinction between where some of the teachers and their ways of playing come from, in Guinea, Mali - and other countries, too.)

I think (as was suggested above) that it's possible to spend a lot of time splitting hairs over whether X rhythm belongs to this or that family, but maybe it's a little futile? (Like trying to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, y'know. )

Bubudi, mostly Famoudou's son (nkörökèlu) are no different source from Famoudou. Nor is Fode B.! He's a Bangoura, so what do you think how often he has been to Hamana? Maybe once in life on a little trip. His sources are FK's and MK' discs and maybe some guys in CKY, who have already changed their way to play (and even more to teach!), too - for they are in CKY! That doesn't count.

I'm playing a school gig with him in a couple of hours... I'll ask him.

Looking forward to the answer, bops! (and I hope the gig went well, too. )

[bubudi]

okok,
I put takonani and damba (it's the Famoudou name) together, because I don't believe in a dundunba rhythm of that kind.

again according to famoudou damba is a dunun rhythm, and he gives a very specific occasion for it. it is not played during the wedding party, but before, during the time the bride to be will have her ritual bath. what reason would you have to believe famoudou invented this rhythm and its significance?

Sorry, but you talk about different swings in dundunba, soli and denba (denabö I think)

no, i was refering to denba as the rhythm known as maraka by most of the maninka and bamana people.

but you put Sökö and Djaa in the same family??????? You can't do that! d;-) No matter where you stop talking about groups, families and so on and what you put where, but Dyaa and Dundunba are nearly as different as kassa and soli.

granted, there are some important differences. the distinctions between families get very blurred after a while. however, to me when you can see enough similarities between rhythms then this suggests a common evolution (and even you conceded that it's 'quite the same').

Nono, in upper guinean music you have to respect the 3 families at least (according to the 3 different basic ways to play a blocage!). I prefer 4, but there we can discuss.

i have heard this idea before, and the demba (maraka) that i mentioned above also has this 'berebere bete bete be' call. however i am sceptical about the idea that the call, being a device invented by the ballets in more recent years, would define the family of the rhythm. many villages to this day still start and stop the music without the use of calls.

Dyanza and Sunu are Kasonka rhythms, aren't they? So this doesn't help in this discussion. Same with Kuku - where is it from? who knows someone who has heard it once in only one traditional way?

actually sunu is from the kagoro people but also played by the soninke (maraka) and khassonke groups. kuku is from the konianke and maoka ethnic groups. all of these are considered mande groups (especially from a linguistic point of view).

Have a look on your notations: the sangban bells of all dundunbas (except donaba and NFaKaba), of Konden, Balani etc will follow the same lines. Dyaa, Tasaba, Gidamba (and Soli) don't. Sökö is the Dyaa line, but for Mamady teaches a echauffment line as normal sangban part, you can't see it there.

ah you see, so there is more similarity between soko and djaa than you thought

you are quite right, the bell parts suggest a different feel. however, i see quite a diversity in sangban bells between the dunun rhythms. again, you cannot define the rhythms arbitrarily. you have to look at a common evolution. it's very organic, it happened over a great many years, and it is still happening. have you ever heard soko dunungbe?

[Afoba]

Good morning Bubudi, I'll write several postings, if not it would be too long.

okok,
I put takonani and damba (it's the Famoudou name) together, because I don't believe in a dundunba rhythm of that kind.

again according to famoudou damba is a dunun rhythm, and he gives a very specific occasion for it. it is not played during the wedding party, but before, during the time the bride to be will have her ritual bath. what reason would you have to believe famoudou invented this rhythm and its significance?

There you're getting too far from what I said originally, and I think we don't use the expression dundun or dundun rhythm in the same way here. I know that the rhythm danba (damba) exists (with a different name) - we even play it on the video - I'm on Sangban, but this is in Fissadou. I heard it in the morning after a Soli night in Sangbarala, too. And Famoudou's story is surely not invented - that's why he uses the name danba - "at the river"
What I said originally, was that I don't believe in the dundunba rhythm tako4, that they took danba as a dundunba rhythm (with the double strokes all the time, which is a variation to me or an echauffement) for the disc of Mamady's, because it has the same kensedeni. But I think there is no such dundunba.

first part

[Afoba]

concerning denba

no, i was refering to denba as the rhythm known as maraka by most of the maninka and bamana people.

OK! But this is a different music, that's why I didn't get. In my postings I refer to the style with 3 dunduns - if you take the Mali stuff in, it's much more complicated (for Bamako is a mixture of lots of styles, so very hard to say what is what compared to the upper Guinean "rhytm families".

HELLO, I MADE A MISTAKE HERE:

[quote=Afoba]but you put Sökö and Djaa in the same family??????? You can't do that! d;-) No matter where you stop talking about groups, families and so on and what you put where, but Dyaa and Dundunba are nearly as different as kassa and soli.

[quote=bubudi]granted, there are some important differences. the distinctions between families get very blurred after a while. however, to me when you can see enough similarities between rhythms then this suggests a common evolution (and even you conceded that it's 'quite the same').[/quote][/quote]
....

ah you see, so there is more similarity between soko and djaa than you thought

you are quite right, the bell parts suggest a different feel. however, i see quite a diversity in sangban bells between the dunun rhythms. again, you cannot define the rhythms arbitrarily. you have to look at a common evolution. it's very organic, it happened over a great many years, and it is still happening. have you ever heard soko dunungbe?

I wanted to say: you put Dundunba in the same family as Sökö and Dya - for they are in the same family! So there is not more similarity betwenn them than I thought, they are quite near.

yeah, you cannot define them ARBITRARILY, but you can say, what has got he same basics and more similarities with which other rhythm. For example (we had this before) Konkoba is in the same amily with the dundunbas, but at the same time it's completely different (I here John Cleese talking), for it has got it's 6 beat's length.

part 2