Binary or Ternary? A silly question? I think so...

[dleufer]

Hahaha!
I thought of something to post a topic about to drive a bit of life into this!
So on Paul Nas' WAP pages he gives tab for both a binary and a ternary version of Yankadi.

Here's the binary
http://www.paulnas.eu/wap/yankadib.html

And the ternary
http://www.paulnas.eu/wap/yankadia.html

Are these just two different rhythms from the Yankadi family? When Famoudou was teaching us "Toro" he wanted to teach 3 "Toro" rhythms, 2 of them were binary and one was ternary (unfortunately we ran out of time and only did one). Is this a similar thing?
Or is there actual division about whether the common Yankadi rhythm is ternary or binary?

I've had conversations with people who were claiming that Yankadi is in 4/4 but I didn't even entertain the possibility, I just figured they didn't know how to properly distinguish between the two. For me dunun bells are a simple way to end the debate and in the Yankadi I know all the dunun bells go;
1..2..3..4..
x.xx.xx.xx.x
For me then, there is no question about whether the Yankadi I know (basically the same as the version on Mamady's "Nankama" album) is binary or ternary. It's ternary.
But I am interested to see if there's any dissenting voices...

One potentially relevant piece of information is that during a dance class on FK's course the dance teacher tried to teach Yankadi but eventually had to give up and do Soko because the drummers (Famoudou wasn't playing obviously) couldn't play Yankadi properly. What is interesting is that the Yankadi the were playing was VERY binary sounding. If I had never heard another version and was asked what timing their Yankadi was in based on their version I would have unconfidently answered binary. But then again it was deemed unsatisfactory by a Susu dancer.

Anyways, that may all be a bit muddled but nevertheless, any thoughts?

[michi]

So on Paul Nas' WAP pages he gives tab for both a binary and a ternary version of Yankadi.

Here's the binary
http://www.paulnas.eu/wap/yankadib.html

And the ternary
http://www.paulnas.eu/wap/yankadia.html

Are these just two different rhythms from the Yankadi family?

No. These are two different ways of (imperfectly) notating the rhythm. Neither notation accurately captures the feel.

For me dunun bells are a simple way to end the debate and in the Yankadi I know all the dunun bells go;
1..2..3..4..
x.xx.xx.xx.x
For me then, there is no question about whether the Yankadi I know (basically the same as the version on Mamady's "Nankama" album) is binary or ternary. It's ternary.

But I am interested to see if there's any dissenting voices...

Well, here is your dissenting voice

Yankadi is neither ternary nor binary in the strict sense of western notation.

Here is a Percussion Studio clip of the binary Yankadi as notated in the page you referenced:

Yankadi-Binary.mp3

This sounds quite close to Yankadi, but the feel isn't quite right.

Here is a clip of the ternary version:

Yankadi-Ternary.mp3

Note that this is "too" ternary, and the feel is wrong, more wrong than for the binary version. So, in feel, the binary version is closer and, from that, I'd say that Yankadi is closer to binary than it is to ternary. But neither of these two is "right".

Here is another version that adds swing to the binary Yankadi by advancing the first half and retarding the second half of each measure:

Yankadi-Swung.mp3

That version is fairly close to the correct feel, although still not entirely right. I'm afraid that, at this point, we reach the limits of Percussion Studio to capture feel. But the above shows that neither notation is correct; the real feel is somewhere in between (although I'd say that, overall, it's closer to the binary version than the ternary one).

Whether you notate it as a binary or a ternary is somewhat arbitrary. Personally, I prefer the binary version because that version comes closer to what the real thing sounds like. (In Mamady's book, it's also notated as a 4/4 rather than a 12/8.) I think of Yankadi as strongly swung 4/4.

Cheers,

Michi.

[michi]

By the way, here is the difference between the binary and the ternary version presented visually:

Yankadi notation.jpg

The top line is the binary version. The bottom line is the ternary version. For the ternary version, the notes are placed on the triplet grid rather than the binary grid. (You get the triplet grid in Percussion Studio by holding down the shift-key when placing notes.) Because each beat is divided into thirds instead of quarters, that causes the second slap of the pair of slaps and the first tone of the pairs of tones to be retarded by a third of a pulse, creating the different feel.

Cheers,

Michi.

[dleufer]

Wow, that's really interesting that it's notated as 4/4 in Mamady's book, I must buy it.

I guess I use binary and ternary very loosely as a way of describing the primary groupings of notes. For example in some rhythms notes occur quite clearly in groups of 2 or 4 per beat (say Djole) whereas in other they occur in groups of 3 (say Dunungbé). I'm well aware of the inadequacy of Western time signiatures like 4/4 and 6/8 to describe African rhythms but binary and ternary are my last resort to describe the way notes seem to be grouped in 3's or 4's. But you're dead right, once swing comes into the picture the whole notion of 3's and 4's gets all muddled up.

I'm glad I posted this now because what seemed so obvious to me is totally wrong to someone else.

I'm afraid that the percussion studio examples you posted don't quite convince me however for a couple of reasons. Firstly, that's not an accompaniment I play for Yankadi! Therefore I can't comment about which one captures the right feel.

Secondly, and more importantly, I find that it's the Duns which really give the melody and feel to the rhythm and which state more clearly than anything the time signiature (for want of a better term). The way I hear Yankadi's dunun melody in no way suggests binary to me. Maybe it's just inexperience with VERY swung binary rhythms but it's seems more logical to class it as ternary.

Anyone who has a problem with these ways of classifying rhythms might want to jump in a say that it's reductive etc. but I really feel that duns, and especially dunun bell patterns clearly state whether a rhythm is binary or ternary (in most cases). Of course even these can be swung but it seems that djembe parts are more easy to swing, especially solos, than dununs.

Another problem here might be that we know different versions of Yankadi. I've come across it from 2 different sources but it was basically the same, ternary, rhythm. Here's the udns I know from one version as I would notate them:
1..2..3..4..1..2..3..4..
x.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.x
d..s.s..kk.dd..s..s.kk.d
I'm not saying that this notation totally captures the rhythm in all it's nuances but for me, having heard the rhythm played properly (I think), this is a good way of notating it. As always with notation however it needs to be combined with actually hearing it played with the correct feel and swing to be useful. It is music after all...

I am open to being convinced otherwise, but for now I stick to my original position...

[michi]

Wow, that's really interesting that it's notated as 4/4 in Mamady's book, I must buy it.

Do—it's a great resource.

In Mamady's book, Yankadi uses a standard 4/4 call. However, I've heard other calls for Yankadi that have a decidedly more ternary feel.

I guess I use binary and ternary very loosely as a way of describing the primary groupings of notes. [...] But you're dead right, once swing comes into the picture the whole notion of 3's and 4's gets all muddled up.

Yes. Whether you notate Yankadi in 12/8 or 4/4 is really an almost arbitrary choice; neither is wrong (but neither is quite right either). The feel is somewhere in between.

I'm afraid that the percussion studio examples you posted don't quite convince me however for a couple of reasons. Firstly, that's not an accompaniment I play for Yankadi! Therefore I can't comment about which one captures the right feel.

See my other post about Yankadi parts. The one I used is one that Mamady teaches.

Secondly, and more importantly, I find that it's the Duns which really give the melody and feel to the rhythm and which state more clearly than anything the time signiature (for want of a better term). The way I hear Yankadi's dunun melody in no way suggests binary to me. Maybe it's just inexperience with VERY swung binary rhythms but it's seems more logical to class it as ternary.

It definitely has a ternary feel to it. The bell is so heavily swung from 4/4 that you might as well call it ternary. For example, in Mamady's book, the dundunba is notated as:

Code: Select all

1...2...3...4...
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
o..oo..oo..oo..o

When you put that into percussion studio and play it back, it sounds like this:

Yankadi-straight dundunba.mp3

This clearly has the wrong feel. It's not played as straight as that.

Here is the same thing in ternary:

Yankadi-ternary.mp3

That's better, but wrong too; it's "too" ternary.

Here is the sound from Mamady's volume 2 DVD for the dundunba. The feel is neither completely ternary nor completely binary:

07 Yankadi Makru_ Instruction.mp3

Anyone who has a problem with these ways of classifying rhythms might want to jump in a say that it's reductive etc. but I really feel that duns, and especially dunun bell patterns clearly state whether a rhythm is binary or ternary (in most cases).

For most rhythms, that is true. On the other hand, for some, it's almost impossible to say for sure. Yankadi is one of those. Another one is Soboninkun. Whether that's a 12/8 or a 4/4 is completely arbitrary. You can choose to feel it either way.

Cheers,

Michi.

[michi]

Here's the udns I know from one version as I would notate them:
1..2..3..4..1..2..3..4..
x.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.x
d..s.s..kk.dd..s..s.kk.d
I'm not saying that this notation totally captures the rhythm in all it's nuances but for me, having heard the rhythm played properly (I think), this is a good way of notating it.

Yes, this is quite close to the real feel. But, yet again, it doesn't completely capture it. Here is what that sounds like when played back literally:

Yankadi dunduns, ternary.mp3

As always with notation however it needs to be combined with actually hearing it played with the correct feel and swing to be useful. It is music after all...

Yes, notation can't really capture what a rhythm feels like. It's only a coarse approximation of the real thing.

I am open to being convinced otherwise, but for now I stick to my original position...

I don't think there is any wrong or right. Both binary and ternary notation sort of work, but neither works properly. It is very much a matter of preference whether one chooses to write the rhythm as binary or ternary.

Cheers,

Michi.

[dununbabe]

no one will ever be able to re-create the feeling of Yankadi with a computer program, or in written text.
Even many other rhythms; be it commonly "referred to" as "binary" or "ternary"-- when you hear them in a village setting, they will morph in and out of binary and ternary feel. For example, binary rhythms will slow down and feel swung, ternary rhythms will speed up and feel binary. To understand the complexities of this kind of drumming, one must really relinquish any preconceived ideas about music. One must be open and flexible and organic. Just as the rhythms are.

[Paul]

Here is a different perspective on it, I find alot of these Susu rhythms maane, gine fare etc.. fall into the difficult to define section..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtZiWtVr ... _embedded#!

This is the rhythm but the feel is quite different to how I would play the dunun pattern... I know in Burkina faso they will change the feel of a rhythm to how they want to sing it, every group will play Sinte Konofe differently..

I looked through youtube and found alot of nasty yankadi vids (Im in one..arghhh)... here is a clear example of the dance...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnO-CC5gPTc

Yankadi not being malinke and all.. so do they play it with bells? and if not can the bells restrict the swing... ???

Here is a bit of crazy bote playing but couldnt find yankadi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctJirj_TJc8

[dununbabe]

Wow, that's really interesting that it's notated as 4/4 in Mamady's book, I must buy it.

hi all=
please remember that it is not "Mamady's" book but that it is by Uschi Billmeier. Mamady himself never "notates" anything, but it is his students who do so. My guess is that Uschi notated it this way because of the type of signal that he used. I also have heard different signals such as ternary signals, but, signals were created in the ballets. I can play any type of signal I want if I am in a performance group,(binary in ternary, ternary in binary) as long as we all agree that it is the signal we will use.

[michi]

please remember that it is not "Mamady's" book but that it is by Uschi Billmeier.

True—Uschi is the sole author of the book. The book is so strongly associated with Mamady (seeing that a very large section of the book is about him, and that much of the information in the book came from him) that people might be forgiven for calling it "Mamady's book" though...

Mamady himself never "notates" anything, but it is his students who do so.

That reminds me about Coleen taking notes last October in San Diego. Can you divulge any intelligence on how that project is coming along?

My guess is that Uschi notated it this way because of the type of signal that he used. I also have heard different signals such as ternary signals, but, signals were created in the ballets. I can play any type of signal I want if I am in a performance group,(binary in ternary, ternary in binary) as long as we all agree that it is the signal we will use.

I agree. Just because something has a 4/4 signal doesn't necessarily mean that it is 4/4. Yankadi is a perfect example. (I've also heard a number of other signals for Yankadi, most of which sound a lot more 12/8 than 4/4...) Soboninkun is another rhythm with a 4/4 call that has a decidedly 12/8 feel to it. But, as I said earlier, Soboninkun is much like Yankadi—which way you notate and feel it is almost arbitrary.

So, the 4/4 notation may well be an artifact of the call. But, if you listen to the Percussion Studio samples I posted earlier, if you compare the strict 4/4 version to the strict 12/8 version, the 4/4 version overall sounds closer to the "true" Yankadi to me (although neither is right, of course).

Cheers,

Michi.

[Djembe-nerd]

it is not "Mamady's" book but that it is by Uschi Billmeier. Mamady himself never "notates" anything, but it is his students who do so.

It is a Mamdy Book, theoritically we can explain otherwise, but the djembe world knows it as notations coming from Mamady, which to all is a trustable source for traditions from Mandingue, otherwise these notations can be found on the internet at 100 sites.

True, the feeling is a different subject, but I consider the book from Mamdy, who was helped by Uschi to write it.

[Mikeleza]

It says at the beginning of the book that "This form of notation allows the transcription of all the rhythms and their basic structure; however, it does not capture their "feeling."

Its up to us as to source good listening material to try to recreate the swing and the feeling of any rhythm.

[davidognomo]

12/8

[djembefeeling]

I would even dare to provoke much more with stating that yankadi = macru. they are just two points in a continuum of speed and swing

[Crispy]

I would even dare to provoke much more with stating that yankadi = macru. they are just two points in a continuum of speed and swing

I can see where you're coming from. I quite like that way of thinking about it.

As far as the binary/ternary debate goes, I think it's a bit of a non-question. I can see a subcategory of the two which I'd call swung binary. Notationally, if all the core parts follow |x-x|x-x|x-x|x-x|, where the '-' are always rests and are never played (x's can be whatever sound you like, or a rest), it's binary that's been swung towards a ternary feel. It can be swung all the way, so the notation above is an accurate reflection of the feel, or it can be swung part of the way (like Yankadi). There're still 8 beats to a bar, but they feel more like ternary than binary. Same could also be true of an |xx-|xx-|xx-|xx-| structure.

Whereas if a rhythm doesn't generally have this rest structure and follows |xxx|xxx|xxx|xxx|, it's ternary.