[Paul]

Has anyone else experienced something similar, where a West African teacher has insisted that a student play with a certain hand pattern, regardless of hand dominance?

That would be weird, I had some teachers who looked at me strange for a moment but thats it.. (they werent as understanding when it came to eating though ).. Making someone play the other way is well strange.. It would be my opinion that lefties are often more suited to being ambidextrous just out of necessity in a righty world, and if I have to teach I do it righty style..

The only time I've heard him say that a left-hander should play right-handed is for ballet-style unison performance breaks. For those, the uniform handing is required for aesthetic reasons.

That can be really confusing trying to play phrases reversed if there is handing involved, but its a good challenge.. leading flams off the right is hard to get at first and i always need to keep practicing that..

[Daniel Preissler]

OK,
a REALLY good djembefola would NEVER have to start with the "wrong" hand,
a GOOD one RARELY
d;-)

[bubudi]

ok with that criteria, good luck finding a really good djembefola!

if a roll will put you onto the 'wrong' hand then you must allow for that in some way, plain and simple. mamady thinks ahead and leads with the opposite hand, but this is not universal. you can also get around it by leaving a gap afterwards, which is probably what most djembefolaw do, but that may mean having to change what you wanted to play just because you don't want to start with the non-dominant hand, which is not mastery.

[Daniel Preissler]

No, Bubudi, they don't have to think that way. This is a whites' problem. Good players have it all inside. It just won't "happen" - and this is mastery!

[AoxoA]

No, Bubudi, they don't have to think that way. This is a whites' problem. Good players have it all inside. It just won't "happen" - and this is mastery!

Why is it a whites problem? Can a black or indian, etc... have this "problem"?

Anyway, Mamady said rolls and flams are personal. Meaning you can lead with any hand you choose. He seems right hand dominate but usually rolls from the left.

I think you should learn to roll and flam both ways.

[bubudi]

haha ok, what makes the hands move, my friend? it is not a conscious thought as such. call it what you will, but the instruction must be there whether you're pink or brown or beige that is an entirely different point to the one i was making: that certain adjustments have to be made (autonomically) on occasion.

[Daniel Preissler]

what would you think of a surgeon who has to make certain adjustments during his work?
or a violine player?

[bubudi]

what would you think of a surgeon who has to make certain adjustments during his work?

actually, they do, all the time! but they often do it more consciously! as long as the result is the intended one and delivered in a timely manner! when a djembefola misses the mark, everyone hears it.

or a violine player?

ok let's ask a violinist, but logically what determines which direction they move the bow is where the bow is at that particular time! therefore the violinist's upstroke must be as good as their downstroke. it's a similar concept, but still not the same as ambidexterity. reminds me of the part in zoolander where eric reveals he is not an ambiturner

you have continued to avoid the question - you say that a very good djembefola/master would never lead with the non-dominant hand. but if they play a phrase which will end with the dominant hand and the next phrase comes immediately after, then in order to continue to lead with the right hand they will effectively have to double up with that hand and it would be too fast to do so without compromising the sound. how do they avoid this problem while still being able to play whatever phrase is in their head at the time?

[Daniel Preissler]

I'm not avoiding your question:
this problem doesn't exist, because only phrases are in their head that would fit to what has been played before (and yes! everything in respect of the dance!).
phrases and changings where you get a handing problem aren't developped IMO - that's all. If you concturct things (thinking about what you could play, writing it down etc.) this could happen - but than it's not traditional music anymore IMO. That's why I said it's a "whites'" problem (you two have alraedy made clear that you prefer the term "people from communities without a living djembe tradition" d;-) ).
Sorry Bubudi, but while you have the feeling that I'm avoiding the question, I got the feeling that you're approaching this question too much in a european (north-american) way - at least today.

I don't think it makes sense to go on here. I know what you mean, but you won't manage to convince me. At the same time I'm not sure you really got my point yet. This might change later (my egocentrism d;-) ). I'm very sorry to say it that rather undiplomatic way, I don't find better words to describe it in english. I got a lot of respect for you due to many things you know and gave to the forum (like just yesterday in the other thread) and I like the way you try to write as kindly as possible (quite better than me!). I think we can still learn a lot from each other, but probably not today in this thread and subject.

Greets and respect,
Daniel


PS: to make one more thing clear at least: I don't think there's only one correct way to play some phrases. My point was just that there are ways to play that avoid the problem you described in every situation.

[Daniel Preissler]

by the way: the possibility that I change my opinion generally still exists!
d;-)
so maybe we gonna talk about it again in some years...

[e2c]

You know, I've been lost for at least the last five posts - what exactly are you guys arguing about, anyway? (Not joking.)

[AoxoA]

I'm not avoiding your question:
this problem doesn't exist, because only phrases are in their head that would fit to what has been played before (and yes! everything in respect of the dance!).
phrases and changings where you get a handing problem aren't developped IMO - that's all. If you concturct things (thinking about what you could play, writing it down etc.) this could happen - but than it's not traditional music anymore IMO. That's why I said it's a "whites'" problem (you two have alraedy made clear that you prefer the term "people from communities without a living djembe tradition" d;-) ).

I still don't see how it is a "whites" problem. As if white people are the only ones who are capable of thinking about what you could play, writing it down etc... Or that white people are incapable of doing the opposite. I don't think it's a skin color problem.

[Daniel Preissler]

I don't think it's a skin color problem.

of course not - but it might be a socio-cultural phenomenon.

seriously: you wouldn't deny that westafrican djembe players have a different musical approach and different "pictures" in their minds than someone who plays in Europe or Japan or the US and tries to develop his or her solo play, would you?!
Clear that the farer you get, the more you play, the more you hear, the more you travel, dance,... - the closer you get to their pictures. But it's not the nearest way.

nice evening, d

[davidognomo]

You know, I've been lost for at least the last five posts - what exactly are you guys arguing about, anyway? (Not joking.)

this has been a very nice thread, you guys.

Starting with hand dominance and ending in instinctive/empiric approach vs. rational approach.

Can't resist to comment. I guess bubudi and a lot of other guys have the right to approach the matter in such rational and calculated way, Daniel.

I'm far to know bubudi's skills and experiences, but I'm guessing that he's not started to play and learn surrounded by really good players, masters, and all the culture. As all of us, or most of the guys here in the forum, he's western (don't know if white or black ).

And I agree with you, or, with what I know your experience is, the best way to learn is to go to the source, and to stay there for as long as possible.

I hope that bubudi won't feel offended if I am taking his point of view, as stated in the previous posts, as a kind of paradigm for a western approach.

As I was starting to say above, a djembefola is born surrounded by all the culture, grows with it, plays with others like him, watches others better than him, has a master, a teacher, has the parties as his classrooms. These kind of doubts are probably answered and solved without a rational grasp of the matter. The hands, the ears, the heart go before the brain.

For me it's like: I always play better when I raise my head and watch all that's in front of me, rather than when I'm bended over the drum, looking at my hands.

Us, westerns, have to understand the mechanics, mostly out of lack of opportunity to live where all you have to do is to step out of the house to see a drum. And, I think that a lot of djembefolas and masters have to think about what hand they put on first and wich one ends a phrase, considering the next.

I hope I got the point, cause it got kind of misty,and, like e2c, I'm kind of confused.

[e2c]

Yeah, david... I re-read the whole discussion a bit earlier, and I'm still confused! Although I do think your summation of this as being (at least in part) about analytical approaches v. more intuitive ones is a bit of it.

What struck me as odd was the part about "percussionists" vs. "djembe players." No doubt a lot of African djembe players are accomplished on other kinds of drums as well, so ...