[e2c]

As an aside, I think Duga's point about the relative inflexibility of the "ignore user" function on the board is a good one, though I wonder if phpBB software allows for any workarounds?

[Beerfola]

"Without necessarily having all the background information" can I ask whether moderators are bound by the same rules? Specifically, " when a person finds a post made on the forum objectionable, the rules and guidelines direct him/her to use the 'report post' button." I'm still trying to figure out how I should feel about the remark, "if a moderator had to explain every action taken, they would need to quit their job and social life to allow them time to moderate, and perhaps only a retiree could be in the position to do so." Retirees don't have social lives? Admittedly, I'm not that invested in this whole dispute. But I can't help but think, based on the lengthy response, that Bubudi does have a problem admitting wrong. However,I'd hate to see this thing stop either of you from stating/sharing your opinions or viewpoints as I value everyone's input.

[bubudi]

Retirees don't have social lives?

not at all what i was saying! giving up a social life implies you very much have one! and i did also say that i didn't think it was healthy for anyone to do so! a failed attempt at humour

can I ask whether moderators are bound by the same rules? Specifically, " when a person finds a post made on the forum objectionable, the rules and guidelines direct him/her to use the 'report post' button.

good point. i will refer that for discussion among the mods, but i'll share my point of view anyway, which is that yes, we the mods should refer something we find personally objectionable, rather than respond to it in the forum. but sometimes a comment from a moderator on or off-list (usually the latter) can save the situation very early on in the course of things. if not, it should get referred to the moderating team.

this also asks the question, why didn't i involve the other mods sooner? to date i have avoided any attack on dugafola and i felt it was worth a try in that early stage to just ask him politely off-list to edit his comments. when i received what i saw as his consent to edit the posts, i thought that part of the problem was solved, and i didn't need to make any further posts or refer it further. i made an honest mistake, i don't know where you got the impression i have a problem admitting it, i believe i did so in several places in my previous response:

if i wasn't tied down with dealing with all the other stuff around this issue, i probably would have withdrawn my statements about the company, in light of all the good rap it has received. i have no problem admitting when i'm wrong.

dugafola is right that people who have actually seen the drums are more qualified to comment, but i do have years of experience with drums and can offer an opinion based on what i can see and hear on the website. i apologise if this offended anyone.

this situation was deceptive in that i took dugafola's 'you can edit my posts' to be his consent, and i think that could easily have happened to any moderator. as i said, most situations arise from misunderstandings.

on second thoughts, i didn't word that third one quite as i intended. i wanted to say that i mistook dugafola's words. this is a text-only medium and if you would have seen 'you can edit my posts' in a text-only medium, you may have made the same mistake. it's a very sad mistake, to be sure, and unfortunately one i can't take back.

and for that i do apologise.

[bubudi]

bubudi wrote
thanks folks!

??? "Thanks"? What for?

for your earlier comments and for all the others who commented. i do appreciate the perspective. really.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my comments about personal attacks were directed at both you and Duga.

i may have stuffed up with the deletion, but i haven't personally attacked anyone.

i could have responded to duga's latest attack, but i'm just not interested.

Look, b- leave me out of it!!!

my apologies if you feel 'dragged in', that that was not my intention and i was careful not to name anyone (although you've already made some of these details public in another thread). however the similarity where a person (or people) decide to try to prohibit another person from expressing their views immediately came to mind here and i thought it went well to illustrate how that feels.

Do you have a right to delete posts that are displeasing to you personally?. imo, NO WAY.

as i have already explained that was done with the genuine impression of full consent from dugafola. anyone can make a mistake, including moderators. i've apologised for this but i unfortunately can't undo it. we will however be able to undo edits in the future, with the help of a mod that will be installed soon.

i would never have edited the posts of my own accord if i didn't think i had his consent. and in future i'm sure we'd still refer the editing for discussion by the team first.

... If you and Duga are gonna duke it out, please take it off-list. There is no need for lengthy self-justifying posts by either of you.

i try to avoid these kinds of situations and i'm not interested in 'duking' with anyone. however, i am entitled to set the record straight about what happened, especially when i did so respectfully. had the comments been made off-list as they should (and had remained civil), i would be responding off-list.

Nobody's interested in this stuff.

i agree, and my post contained very little about dugafola, and much more about moderation in general, the process that occurred here and the steps now in progress.

I think we care about how the board is - or is not - being moderated.

those are the exact points i addressed in my previous post.

I personally believe that it would be far better to have other mods (James, Rachel) look at supposedly offensive posts before anyone deletes them.

agreed! but again, that would have been the course of action in this case had dugafola not written 'you can edit my posts'. with the new mod we'll be properly equipped to keep track of what went down after edits took place.

It's in James' hands now. (I'd advocate bubudi's taking a break from modding - something frequently done on other forums - and having someone who's removed from this conflict stepping in, even if only temporarily.)

that has already happened. once i involved james, i naturally stepped down from moderating this thread (and the original one), otherwise it would be a conflict of interest.

i will try to respond the minimum here from now on, but if further comments are made about me or directed at me, i reserve my right to respond as any member should be able to.

i have a couple of other immediate moderator responsibilities i have to attend to on the forum, but other than those i would be happy to take a short break and leave things in james and rachel's capable hands.

peace

[the kid]

I didn't open this can of worms did i ...

Whatever, I still can't get over the rules and guidlines.. I knew it would never be the same again

Alas the rest is history

On the plus side we have enough juice in this tread to provide a few good humor threads

[e2c]

How about a moratorium on post edits by mods?

Overall, I'm uncertain as to whether the issues raised by the deletion of posts in the Djembedirect topic are actually being addressed here. For one thing... it wasn't just Duga's posts that disappeared.

I guess I'm hoping to hear from both James and Rachel on all of this, although I realize that Rachel is on her way to Mali and will likely not be available for some time.

I just have this feeling that the board belongs primarily to one person, rather than a place where there is a moderating team that's actively working to moderate when necessary. And I don't think that's especially healthy, for either the board or for anyone who takes it all on their shoulders. it certainly increases the threshold of possibility for major - and sometimes ill-considered - actions, as with the Djembedirect thread post deletions. (Nobody's Superman/woman... imo, moderating well is the job of many, not one.)

What's done is done, but the repercussions are very much with us.

And again... I would appreciate it if my personal experiences are not dragged in to justify someone's pov during an argument.

I don't believe there's anything unreasonable in my objection to your use of *my* personal anecdote. The best way of handling that: ask first. Not only is that polite, it's just plain common sense.

[djembefola.com admin]

James: I would like to request that post deletion not be up to one person alone, but that it be run by you and rachel, too. (Excepting spam, of course.)

I agree that a moderator needs to be able to act without referring to other moderators, but if the deem it may be controversial they are encouraged to do so. As a fail safe, from now on no posts will ever be permanently deleted.

If a moderator feels that a post has infringe a guideline it will be moved to a hidden "Trash" forum. The person will be notfied by private message.

If the person feels that they have been ill done by then can contact me by private message and I will investigate the issue. All posts will be viewable in the trash forum by me and I will make a call on what the final action will be.

I am also upgrading the forum software soon and will add a modification that will allow moderators to view the edit history of all posts. This will help with issues where people are editting the post and it is difficult to judge after the fact what actually happened.

Whatever, I still can't get over the rules and guidlines.. I knew it would never be the same again

All online communities have rules and guidelines and for good reason. I am afraid we need rules, so that we have something to refer people to when we need to take action.

Ok, so Bubudi will take a holiday from moderating for a while.

I have put in place a number of procedures on the moderators side, and I'm confident that this issue won't rear it's head again, because I feel that we are now prepared to deal with any issues a better than we were.

All feedback appreaciated
James

[e2c]

James, thanks for the updates - and the upgrades! Sounds really good.

All the best to you, b, and Rachel.

[bubudi]

I just have this feeling that the board belongs primarily to one person, rather than a place where there is a moderating team that's actively working to moderate when necessary.

i can see how one may get that impression, and i've often said to the team that i feel as though the moderation workload should be more shared, both for a fair distribution of responsibilities, and for the balance that it gives.

i have to also point out that being a major contributor to the forum (high post count), combined with being moderator, kind of gives an uncomfortable impression of being all-powerful or something like that. in reality james takes a firmer approach than me in moderating (at least in the relatively few occasions he has stepped in). but james is the site owner and founder, and he tends not to post much. his job requires spending many hours a day in front of a computer, and then he spends many more hours developing this site, so i empathise with his not being able to take on moderation as a regular thing.

on a more personal note, i am much humbler in person than the impression my post count might give. i have been corrected by people on the forum in the past and usually take it with a smile. everyone makes mistakes and anyone who posts as much as me is bound to make lots of them

i'm all for improving the team, and made some suggestions to james about procedures and other measures we could take.

be well everyone. hugs!

[the kid]

Enjoy your holiday

When you come back you can apologize and maybe we'll accept you back